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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2010, 09:15 am 
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In the shout box today, a discussion was brought up, and as Dot said, it would be better to discuss as a forum thread instead of being lost in the shout box as it will eventually scroll out.

The following is from the chat box in the order it was made. Please bear with me as it will take a few minutes to set up as I have to post, and then edit the post several times:

From me last night:
Quote:

Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:27 pm
Ah! I remember now! Christian told me to go sign up for that newsletter about Pipmak......see what happens when you get old? The mind is the first thing to go!


From Christian Walther:
Quote:

Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:30 am
There isn't a newsletter about Pipmak, Andy (not much news, unfortunately) - I was talking about the mailing lists/newsgroups/forums where working with Pipmak is discussed (http://pipmak.sourceforge.net/maillists.php). What I meant to say is that more traffic there, indicating that Pipmak is being used, would give me an incentive to continue working on it.


From me:
Quote:

Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:43 am
Yes, I registered last night. I think your best incentive would be to have more people want to use it to create things as you said. It would help to have a bit more visibility I think, but at the same time you get people wanting 3D movement vs Myst III movement. I like both, but really like how real things look with Hi-Res. I could help promote here, show what can be done and how to do it, but I have to be careful as some people will feel I'm trying to remove the GoMa's focus on Plasma and Uru, and I don't want them to think that. I just like the idea of giving people something else to do when things are dry.


From Jamey:
Quote:

Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:27 am
Personally, I feel like if the GoMa limit themselves to only working with Uru's engine, they can't learn and try new things other game engines could offer them when working on Uru. Experience with other game engines, and trying new ideas inspired by them within Uru's engine is, IMO, very important. This is just me though. :)

Jamey


From Christian Walther:
Quote:

Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:30 am
I have some understanding for the people who would like the GoMa (the guild, not the people that make it up!) to stay focused on Uru. Some people just aren't interested in other places and prefer not having to filter their forum reading into stuff that interests them and stuff that doesn't. I don't see the open-mindedness compromised by that, Jamey, as individuals are still welcome to work with different engines. They can post about details of their work in the respective specialized forums (or general-purpose forums), but still take their general experience everywhere. Cross-world projects that tie into the Uru story are a different matter. Andy, would there be a way to make it clear that what you're doing, while hosted on the GoMa forum, is your personal project and not part of the official GoMa mission - more separated subforums or whatever? Or, even better, do it on a general-purpose Myst fan or game development forum? When I started with Pipmak, I was an active member of MYSTcommunity, and that was a perfect place.


From Dot:
Quote:

Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:52 am
Would it be worth doing this sort of discussion in a forum thread rather than the chat box? That way, we don't lose the insights and suggestions people have.


From Marcus Wheeler:
Quote:

Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:55 am
One event that will pass with the "restructuring" will be a forum re-organization. Placing things where they make sense and cutting down on clutter. I hope to see Andy's tutorials (not separated but) clearly in a separate section from Guild-related discussion or actions. But yes, Dot, this should definitely be a thread if people are interested in starting one =)


And now we can continue the discussion in this thread without anything being lost.

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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2010, 10:01 am 
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I could create a sub-forum that reads something like:

"Off Topic Discussions Of Other Game Engines"

or

"Off Topic Discussions of Myst and Other Game Engines"

And I can post a sticky there declaring that part of the forum is not GoMa mission based, but is purely personal work from me and others that care to post and share. Results of work I and others do, sharing of tips and info, and I can even help post some tutorials and links to help those who would like to try doing work in this area. But make it clear that it's not something that is GoMa supported, simply a place to have to talk where people are already at.

I can whip that up in minutes, as I have full control over this forum, both as a Mod and as part of the admin group. The only thing I can't do is: physically turn off and on the server or reset it. Nynaveve must do that as it's 3000 miles away from me (all though I'm working on my "Mind Control" abilities so I can.....come on spoon! Bend!!!!).

(and yes, I'm kidding about the Mind thing for those that thought otherwise..... :ugeek: )

In truth, and I've mentioned this to others in private, I have thought seriously of setting some place up online where people can get together to do exactly what I'm describing: Simply sharing their work, be it Plasma, Ogre, Unreal, Pipmak, Pyzzle, etc, etc. 2D graphic art, 3D graphic art, you name it, but without fear of having someone come in and start some BS about how "that's not Uru" or "That's not MOUL" or "That's not canon". There are many people like me out there that don't CARE if it's Uru, MOUL, or Plasma.
What we care about is making things that look great. Exploring other avenues (let's face it, if you played Myst and Uru, more than likely you're an Explorer. If all you've ever played is MOUL, UU or Uru Live, than more than likely you're not really an Explorer, you're a Socialite. But it's the Explorers that are not afraid to try new things, make new things, and think "Outside" of the box).

However, starting up another web site has it's pro's and con's. Pro's being: I can do what I want, I can say what I want, I can put my foot up someone's butt for being harassing if I want, and it doesn't affect THIS community. Con's being: Not Another Web Site! People start to loose track of what is where. Plus I can see that I'd be accused of trying to take people away from this community, even if what I'm trying to do is add to it.

So I've still not quite made up my mind about it. I have to admit, it would be very nice to have somewhere that I and others can go and not get badgered, flamed, trolled for DARING to think and make things outside of the Uru / MOUL box.

Also, Marcus has indicated that he'd like to "clean up" this forum and re-organize it. That kind of ties my hands as I don't want to create a new sub-forum that later must be moved around. (which btw Marcus, keep in mind that in your "clean up" efforts, you may end up breaking a LOT of links that people have posted in other forums if we start moving a lot of things around).

Having an area where people can talk about things that they have made that are both Myst and even Uru related, but using a different game engine, or even just art work would be great. So long as it could be done in a way that does not get the GoMa accused of: "Trying to be the GoW" :roll: or "You're not doing your JOB! You're suppose to ONLY bug test Ages!" :roll:

In the interest of keeping more of that happening, I would have to make it very CLEAR that it's over here ONLY because it's a place to take a break and chat about it, and that I have the server space to help some with it. Again, all personal, nothing "official" from the GoMa.

There could also be fallout with those that would say "But you should only be focusing on Uru and Plasma!" (with "you" being me personally, or anyone else that joined in to learn and work with other things).
I really don't want to cause anything like that, but I get REALLY pissed off when other people try to tell me what I should be doing with MY time....especially since I do not get a pay check from them. I do what I want to do, when I want to do it, ON what I want to do. Their opinion has been noted (and circular filed). I have a tendency to work on many different things at different times, and here is why: Burn Out

Keeping to one thing, day after day after day burns me out on that thing. I go from enjoying it, to hating it. It becomes redundant, and I become bored.
Sure, a paying job is that way, but again, I'm getting a paycheck for that. I'm being PAID to suffer the redundant and boring parts (it makes up for it). And last I looked no one was paying me to make Ages, work with Plasma and Uru, write tutorials for Age Creation, or for Inspecting other Fan Ages.

So yes, talking about here shouldn't be a problem, so long as we make everyone understand it's a personal thing, not GoMa supported. Off Topic is Off Topic.

And before someone suggests the GoW forum.......for a very long time there was NO "Off Topic" part of that forum. Discussions about anything other than Age Creation and development for Tools for Age creation was really not allowed, and a good way to get your post deleted. It took them a long time to get a "Off Topic" part of the forum made (trust me, there were a LOT of people over there that were against having any kind of Off Topic area, if you dig far enough, I'm sure you can even find the original poll thread for it). They want to concentrate on Age Creation using Plasma, and the tools around it. And that's fine as no one should be telling them what to do either,

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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2010, 12:04 pm 
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Good points, Andy. Let me elaborate on one of my points:

andylegate wrote:
However, starting up another web site has it's pro's and con's. Pro's being: I can do what I want, I can say what I want, I can put my foot up someone's butt for being harassing if I want, and it doesn't affect THIS community. Con's being: Not Another Web Site! People start to loose track of what is where. Plus I can see that I'd be accused of trying to take people away from this community, even if what I'm trying to do is add to it.

There are two sides to the “Not Another Web Site!” coin: If there are two topics, one that I’m interested in and one that I am not (let’s say “Uru” and “Second Life”), I’d rather have them discussed on separate sites, so that I can conveniently read one and ignore the other, than on the same one, where I have to continually sift through things to find the bits I’m interested in. For the people who are interested in both topics, on the other hand, having them on the same site is clearly more convenient. (I’m not saying that is happening for me, I’m just trying to put myself into the minds of those advocating a narrow focus for the GoMa.)

Also, avoiding the “Not Another Web Site” problem was why I suggested using an existing general-purpose community Myst or game development forum like MYSTcommunity (no idea if it would still be a good place, I haven’t been there for ages), iDevGames, or what have you. Perhaps there is a place where you aren’t as “off-topic” as you are on a forum that has (or should have, in the opinion of some) such a specific purpose as the GoMa or GoW.


I am starting to think that there are two parts to the GoMa as it exists today – at least as I as an outsider see it. Accentuating that division could be beneficial – or not. There is the “GoMa in the narrower sense” whose purpose it is to provide infrastructure for testing Uru ages. And there is the “GoMa in the wider sense” that consists of the whole community that happens to have congregated here, people who enjoy each other’s company and like to talk and work together on various topics, be they related to narrower-sense guild matters or not. I see this combination as a specialty of the GoMa, for example I don’t see that “wider sense” community spirit (or only to a much smaller extent) in the GoW, which is very much a technical place, focused on a few specific topics, while other communities, such as Webpanda or the MYSTcommunity I remember, are purely social.


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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2010, 12:42 pm 
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I've always been one who likes "hidden gems" :P

I remember when I first joined UO, back when Uru first come out (this was before UU), you have a place to talk about everything Uru (and we did, brother did we, right down to even creating some of our own Joke pics, like my Evil Monkey on the rope bridge in Ae'gura).
But you could also click on one link and "Tah-Dah!" you were at Myst Obssesions, where you could talk about any and everything that was Myst related.
I didn't actively post there, all of my posts were at UO. But I did like jumping over, and I would find some new screen shot that I loved to death. I'd be like: "Oh wow! I've never looked at that from that angle before!"

Part of it to is wanting to get more people involved. More people involved means more opinions, thoughts and ideas. Keeping things in such a narrow field of focus excludes a lot of people. I do like to get feed back. I might not agree with the feed back, but here and there I'll get some good ideas, or opinions I value. Just telling me to get rid of something doesn't work. It's there, I put it there, and there it will stay. Instead, try to tell me how to make it look better, or how to move something else around, etc.

So yes, a place like this, there is free advertising. People dropping in to read my tutorials, or read other posts, will see it and may visit. Of those that visit, some may get interested.
A blind web site, that's in a link I might provide in a post, may or may not get click on.

So one thing that would be neat is using some of the server space to provide another site, just like UO did with their Myst Obssessions part.

That would be something I'd have to talk to Nyn about. She'd have to set it up at first (I'm fully versed in setting up a forum board and web site, but she'd have to get that part started), and she may not have the time to spare. I can see her coming at me with a bat right now..... :o

But the point is, it would not be any thing that is technically "Official" with the GoMa. It would simply be on the same server (with me donating to her for the band width of course), but there could be a link from here to there (like we have at the top of the forum now).

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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2010, 01:54 pm 
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Christian's insight as an outsider into the two aspects of GoMa is how I have seen the area here for quite a while.

Let's be honest, 'GoMa in the wider sense' is where most of the activity has been happening over the past year or so. But is that so bad?

It isn't as though exploring/checking out fan ages hasn't been encouraged-- lots of initiatives aimed at that but fizzled out through lack of support.

However, Andy's tutorials have helped a lot of people get going with particular aspects of age creation. D'Lanor's expert and informative answers to questions in the forum are similarly supportive.

'GoMa in the wider sense' has also given enjoyment to others, not just those in the Uru community. The planning and discussions for this aspect took place both here and in the other worlds. Being in those other worlds enables one to keep in touch with others who have moved on from Uru, and the Myst/Uru-style builds attract others who have never heard of Uru.


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PostPosted: 05 Oct 2010, 02:40 am 
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As for additional forums I usually oppose them on general principals. That's just me.

OpenUru.org does pretty much what you are discussing. I had hoped it would be a center for Uruites building in alternate worlds. We have OpenSim and SL sections there now.

If there is some concern about diluting GoMa... consider OpenUru.org.

As to people thinking you are drawing people away from Uru and Plasma... They may think that no matter what you do. I use SL as an example of something and what people enjoy and I'm stealing Uru players. :roll: I just figure somethings are too nuanced for small minds. :)

The evidence is that you can't steal players away from Uru. They may go play in another world or game. But, if they can build there, they build Uru stuff.

As for taking people away from Plasma... most of us are not using it, in a development sense. The people developing ages, Who's On, OHBot, Plasma library and client are not going to abandon those things. All you can do is give Uruites more options.

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PostPosted: 05 Oct 2010, 04:13 am 
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I'm not sure that OpenUru.org is a good match for what Andy is describing. Why?

Because it is focused on projects that could feed into Uru, rather than blue sky thinking, which Andy's idea might include.

Because it is very business-like, and doesn't feel like 'fun' to me -- you go there to work on a specific project, not play around with ideas or meet up with friends.

Because Andy won't be able to put his foot down about harassment.


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PostPosted: 05 Oct 2010, 05:18 am 
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The main problem I see with using OpenUru is mainly, well, it's about Open Sourced Uru.

Some of the things I'm talking about could be seen as helping promote Open Sourced Uru, such as using Ogre or Unreal as a live rendering 3D game engine.
But if I or others start talking about Pipmak or Pyzzle or other Pre-Rendered Slide Show type game engines, there will be people that might object to discussing that as in one sense it could be considered taking a step backwards (Free 3D Movement vs Pre-Rendered Point And Click), or say someone does make something that uses something like Ogre or Unreal, but instead of some Uru Age, you're walking about Babylon 5, or DS9, you could still have people jump up and go: "That's not Uru!"

What I'm talking about is a place that any can go to and share creations regardless of what game engine / tool is used or what the subject matter is and not be harassed or flamed by other people that are, er....rather "over zealous" about Uru, Plasma, Canon, etc.

Let me give you an example: my Eder Tomahn thread over at the MOUL forums. The purpose of the thread was to share something I'm creating. Opinions and observations are always welcomed, even negative ones (I'd rather the negative ones contain some constructive feedback, as just saying "I hate it." makes me shrug and ignore that person. I can't read their minds.).
But I had the thread locked because it went from sharing what I was working on and getting constructive feed back, to a argument over what is or is not canon, despite indicating I was done arguing about it and wanted the thread back on topic.
Telling me something isn't Canon, or what your personal opinion is about something is fine. Continuing to badger me about it is not. That's called "Trolling": the continued derailment of the original topic. So I gave up and asked the mods to lock the thread.

I'd rather have a place where people can share their work, no mater what it is, with out having to worry about, or receiving that type of trolling or harassment. Because it's something that's not Uru, MOUL, Plasma or Canon.

For example, I've got a really cool example of a working Stargate from Stargate: SG-1. It actually dials, the chevrons animate, and that kick-butt water plume that shoots out happens (I don't want to tell you just how frakkin hard THAT was to make! It was.....wow, hard), and a "Event-Horizon" water waveset in the middle of the gate.
I'm damn proud of it. It's actually better than what Gate-Worlds has for their failed MMO. It took me a LOT of work, and I've got a ton of tips on it.

But where do I share it? Do I go share it with Stargate fans on some website there? Most of them will look at me cock-eyed since I'm using the Plasma Game Engine to do this.
Do I share it on MOUL forums? Not a chance, because first it breaks the forum rules since I'm talking about using Uru:CC. Then there would be those that would jump up and scream that what I've made is not URU.
Do I share it on the GoW forum? Not a chance! While it shows just how impressively Plasma can perform, and one hell of a special effect, again, I would be crucified for "not focusing on Uru and MOUL Ages".
Share it here? Possibly. But then, the GoMa has been accused of removing focus again from all things Uru. I could say it was my own personal project, but again, there would be people that would jump up and yell that it doesn't matter, that the GoMa allowing posts like that, is helping individuals remove focus from Uru.

So you see: it's a problem. We have people out there that don't want others "thinking outside the Uru / Plasma box". They consider it a threat or a danger for some strange reason. They've become so closed minded, so obsessed with Uru / Plasma that they can't think outside the box. They would look at what I'm sharing, and not see the potential, which is how what I did can be used IN Uru / Plasma: better textures, model morphing, animation, lighting, sound FX, etc.
Instead of looking at it that way, they'd instead shout it down.

Just like any Kangaroo Court: you've been pre-judged and found guilty well before any proceedings happened. Nothing you say will make a difference.

So it's not a matter of whether or not I control harassment, but simply want a place where it IS controlled. A place where someone can come in and share something, whether or not it has to do with Uru / Plasma does not mater. Others can talk about it, in a constructive way. Saying "I don't like it because....." is fine, but should be left at that. The original creator can either listen or ignore, but they should not be badgered or harassed.

So that's why I'm worried about doing it here, or at any other "Uru" type of site. At the same time, there would be a lot of things that Uru-ites might find interesting, instructive, or helpful. The Uru Community is a large resource to be tapped.

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PostPosted: 05 Oct 2010, 07:51 am 
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The more I think about this, the more attracted I am to the idea of parallel forums similar to the Uru Obsession/Myst Obsession split described by Andy, with a top-level link between the two.

It acknowledges history and roots while giving each separate branch the space to develop and grow in its own right.

Is it possible to divide an existing forum into two, keeping at least the internal links intact? And maybe keep the same log-in for both?

I guess that would be a question for Nyn.


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PostPosted: 05 Oct 2010, 12:26 pm 
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andylegate wrote:
We have people out there that don't want others "thinking outside the Uru / Plasma box". They consider it a threat or a danger for some strange reason. They've become so closed minded, so obsessed with Uru / Plasma that they can't think outside the box.

Is it really that severe? Not just people not wanting to dig through stuff they’re not interested in, as I have been cautiously assuming? People thinking along the lines of “Hey, it’s great that you’re doing all this wider-sense stuff, but please don’t call it ‘GoMa’, and keep it out of the way of those of us who would just like to deal with the GoMa-in-the-narrower-sense.”?

It is at least my impression that that is what people like Whilyam, Kaelis, and OHB (to name some of those who have spoken up at the All Guilds Meeting) think. But I may be wrong – I hope they’ll come here and speak for themselves (provided they can do it in a friendly way).


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