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PostPosted: 05 Oct 2010, 01:53 pm 
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Christian Walther wrote:
andylegate wrote:
We have people out there that don't want others "thinking outside the Uru / Plasma box". They consider it a threat or a danger for some strange reason. They've become so closed minded, so obsessed with Uru / Plasma that they can't think outside the box.

Is it really that severe? Not just people not wanting to dig through stuff they’re not interested in, as I have been cautiously assuming? People thinking along the lines of “Hey, it’s great that you’re doing all this wider-sense stuff, but please don’t call it ‘GoMa’, and keep it out of the way of those of us who would just like to deal with the GoMa-in-the-narrower-sense.”?

It is at least my impression that that is what people like Whilyam, Kaelis, and OHB (to name some of those who have spoken up at the All Guilds Meeting) think. But I may be wrong – I hope they’ll come here and speak for themselves (provided they can do it in a friendly way).


Some people have been vocal in that way (severity) yes. They feel it "drives" people away from Uru / MOUL, or to other MMO's out there. That they don't mind you or I as a individual having those interests, but that a organization (like the GoMa) should not be involved in any of that stuff because they feel it will actually take people from the Uru community, and make it smaller.

So basically it's: Fear. Fear that the community will continue to get smaller and smaller, as people loose interest, get bored and drift away.

I'm not going to name names, because it isn't just limited to people over at the GoW. There are many out there in the community that feel this way. They are worried, upset, and scared that one day enough people will drift away that there's not enough money donated to Cyan to keep their server going. That after awhile, shards will end up closing down, one by one, as people loose interest and drift off, even the owners of those shards.

It's an understandble type of fear, heck I even share it. The difference is; how everyone faces it, because you HAVE to face it if you're going to be part of this community.

Many of them believe that the best thing is to make new content and as much new content as possible, meaning that those that know how to do this need to be ONLY doing that, so that it speeds up the process (take a long time to make a good Age).

And that the GoMa should stay focused only on inspecting that new content, actively going over to the GoW and getting Writers that are working on things, to let them help Q&A, as more eyes are better than one set.

Now I agree and disagree with that. I agree, we need more stuff and as much stuff out there. Yes, people at the GoMa should be helping Writers that are willing with Q&A, help track down bugs, and test the solutions to them. Absolutely.

BUT...and here is where I disagree: What they didn't (I use the word "didn't" because the other day after the Guilds Meeting, Marcus was able to explain this to them) understand was: The GoMa being involved in places that are other MMO's isn't to take people away from the community, but to keep in touch with them, get them to come back and try new things, and to explain and invite new people to Uru that have never played it before. That is what the GoMa has been trying to do.

But new content in just the form of Ages may not be the only answer. Only so many Ages get put out (again, takes a while to make an Age look and be good, especially if you're doing it all yourself), and those Ages have to be explored either off line in Uru:CC or on a shard. But that's only ONE THING that we can offer them if we keep our out look so narrow.

What if not only do they have the new Ages that work in Uru:CC or on a shard to explore and try out, but they also had Ages made that use Pipmak? It's something ELSE to explore! MORE things for the Maintainers to work with, and something ELSE that a Writer might want to give a try (and take a break from their current project that they need a break from). Heck, your Pipmak makes it to where you don't even need to BUY a game before you try it out!

So the way I look at it is this:

Some say that everyone needs to keep their view focused in a narrow way and work on the job at hand: nothing but Uru / Plasma.
To me that's like a surgeon working on a patient, taking out their appendix before it burts.......but because they are so concentrated on that job, they're ignoring the fact that a major artery has sprung a leak and the life blood is spraying out. BOTH are important, and BOTH need to be paid attention to.

Ah...in fairness, Whilyam can't post right now on here for another week I believe. I won't go into details as that's not fair to him. But I do believe that if he could post he would say that after he talked with Marcus he understood much better where the GoMa was coming from. But he is just one person, and so are the others you mentioned, they are not the only ones who have been thinking this way, there are others out there.

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PostPosted: 05 Oct 2010, 10:07 pm 
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Christian Walther wrote:
andylegate wrote:
We have people out there that don't want others "thinking outside the Uru / Plasma box". They consider it a threat or a danger for some strange reason. They've become so closed minded, so obsessed with Uru / Plasma that they can't think outside the box.

Is it really that severe? Not just people not wanting to dig through stuff they’re not interested in, as I have been cautiously assuming? People thinking along the lines of “Hey, it’s great that you’re doing all this wider-sense stuff, but please don’t call it ‘GoMa’, and keep it out of the way of those of us who would just like to deal with the GoMa-in-the-narrower-sense.”?

It is at least my impression that that is what people like Whilyam, Kaelis, and OHB (to name some of those who have spoken up at the All Guilds Meeting) think. But I may be wrong – I hope they’ll come here and speak for themselves (provided they can do it in a friendly way).


indeed, I know I am /definitely/ am very happy with the wider universe stuff - i do quite a bit myself.

i also have no problem with non-canon content in uru - i just don't like it when its passed off as canon. which is the issue that was brought up in that topic on the moul forums. We said that doesn't make sense in canon, Andy argued that it did. So, as a result, we felt it necessary to argue the evidence that it, indeed, does not work in canon. =P

I'd rather GoMa-Proper stuck to testing ages in plasma. not necessarily Uru itself, though.

This guild of writers thread pretty neatly disproves Andy's theory on "well, if non uru stuff was posted at the GoW people would have a fit"-sort of thing.

http://forum.guildofwriters.com/viewtop ... f=7&t=4745

Its bleedingly obvious that the person wants to produce something non-uru with it, especially looking at their sig. ;) Yet not a single soul as of this posting has complained, and everyone has been helpful. Fancy that.

Tweek has suggested the definitions "plasma map" and "uru age", at one stage... and, for a time, even worked on another setting to work with, rather than put up with the rabid fanatics that say random stuff is not uru. =P

I personally believe andy is misinterpreting what is said, and believing it to be something it very much /isn't/. Canon mattered to whil, and me, and tweek, for Andy's location, as, supposedly, it was designed with the original intent to be submitted to the DLC. for which it was /important/ for the location to be acceptable, or at least /fit/ within canon. ;)

I know i'm perfectly ok with plasma engine stuff that isn't at all uru based - its the choice of the user to install it, but I have a mantra when it comes to mods: "don't like it? don't install it." Which I'm pretty sure Andy will recognise, as its right up there with "no piccie, no clickie" in the elderscrolls/bethesda modding community culture.

Do whatever the pants you like in your mod/age/whatever - if a user does not like it? they do not have to install it. And i'll /defend/ someone's right to do that. *however* if someone is doing something, i'm going to mention its not canon. if they argue it is, i'll give evidence of the contrary, if there is some. and it will continue until one or the other is either proven wrong or concedes the point. =P

And, no, I don't think its any organisation should not be involved with other communities, I feel that the /guilds/ should focus on Uru and/or plasma.

I also have no doubt that cyan is getting plenty in donations - in my opinion, probably more than enough to bump to CAVCON 5. - I don't think they /will/, however. But that's another story.

My opinion that the best hope for Uru, for now, is not the Ages, etc. But rather things like OHB was doing. and Plasmaclient. Definitely plasmaclient. And some other projects which I won't mention for now.

I can do Ages, so I do them. I'd sure be nice for stuff to actually happen - but you get that. Or, perhaps I should say I did do them - I've put virtually everything on hold, now, but, again, you get that.

I'd love to say some other things, but, due to this forum's history, and its more regular members - I feel it'll not be well received. But I will say I'm tired of accusations. Many of you don't know me. You don't know me very much at all. You know what I'm like on forums. But forums are where I'll see a problem, or an issue, and I'll respond to it - I see a problem, I try and deal with it. Some of you don't like how I deal with it - that's ok, you're entitled to your opinion - I don't have to agree, however. But very, very few know what I'm like outside of these sorts of issues. I don't participate in social activities much on forums, etc - I do what I need to do, and get on with it. Its a pity that you don't - perhaps you might have less accusations for me and others.


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PostPosted: 06 Oct 2010, 03:54 am 
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Quote:
This guild of writers thread pretty neatly disproves Andy's theory on "well, if non uru stuff was posted at the GoW people would have a fit"-sort of thing.

http://forum.guildofwriters.com/viewtop ... f=7&t=4745


Not a theory: it's a fact. In the past, the GoW has not been so "tolerant". There are plenty of old threads there to show that. However if that attitude has changed, that's great to hear.

Quote:
i also have no problem with non-canon content in uru - i just don't like it when its passed off as canon. which is the issue that was brought up in that topic on the moul forums. We said that doesn't make sense in canon, Andy argued that it did. So, as a result, we felt it necessary to argue the evidence that it, indeed, does not work in canon. =P

~snip~

I personally believe andy is misinterpreting what is said, and believing it to be something it very much /isn't/. Canon mattered to whil, and me, and tweek, for Andy's location, as, supposedly, it was designed with the original intent to be submitted to the DLC. for which it was /important/ for the location to be acceptable, or at least /fit/ within canon. ;)


~snip~

and it will continue until one or the other is either proven wrong or concedes the point. =P


I started the thread 20 days after the DLC had ended. I had decided not to submit my Age well before that.

Arguing with me about what is and is not cannon is fine. Badgering me about it is not. I had already indicated in 2 different posts that I was done arguing about whether or not it was Canon. At that point, any further posts on that was no longer an "argument", but instead was continuing to derail the original topic. Which did happen so I had the mods lock it down.

That and I had been privately contacted by someone that had indicated there were other reasons for your guys "concern" over my Age that had nothing to do with Canon.

Quote:
And, no, I don't think its any organisation should not be involved with other communities, I feel that the /guilds/ should focus on Uru and/or plasma.


And that's what we're talking about here: where to put the discussion I'm talking about, so that it does not bother/upset anyone or make people think the GoMa is loosing focus.

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PostPosted: 06 Oct 2010, 04:28 am 
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I'm PM'ing Nynaveve asking her about the possibility of setting up what we're talking about: a key switch that people can use to go to this forum to another that's not the GoMa forum. If I remember right, the only problem is that the URL will still start out as being "www.guildofmaintainers.org"

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PostPosted: 06 Oct 2010, 09:28 am 
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*rises from her crypt after Andy's harassment* (kidding about the harassment bit)

Its no problem to host multiple domains on my server. So if ya'll want to go get a new domain so you're not sitting under "guildofmaintainers.org" you can do that, and we can direct it to my IP address and you can host off my box. Apache is spiffy like that. :) Or you can stay under the heading of GoMa.org. Your call. The domain name we have now is about $10 a year, I am just not sure how much it was to purchase initially. We bought it through mydomain.com if you want to price it out.

Either way, I can set up a fresh copy of phpBB (the forums we use) and give Andy or whoever full admin rights over them to do whatever you want to them. Essentially, I can section off a chunk of the server for you to mutilate as your own if you'd like.

Is that what you're looking for?

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PostPosted: 06 Oct 2010, 10:10 am 
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Yes! I think that would work out great. I'll look into the cost of a new domain name, and make sure it has nothing to do with GoMa. It'll be it's own entity. I'll get back with you on it.

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PostPosted: 07 Oct 2010, 04:20 am 
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Cost for the domain name is quite cheap actually. I can nab it right now. But I'm trying to think of a name. Any suggestions?

I had thought of "Beyond Uru" , "Ages Beyond Uru" , or "Art Beyond Uru" but 2 things might be wrong with those names:

1) I don't want people to think it has to be about or related to Uru, and

2) ABU normally means Alcohol By Unit, heh, which is related to ABV, Alcohol By Volume.

I also keep thinking of "Beds, Bath and Beyond" for some funny reason, heh (you know, I've never stepped foot in their store?)

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PostPosted: 07 Oct 2010, 04:55 am 
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The following domain names are all free at the time of writing, if any of them take your fancy:

guildoffreelances.com, .net, .org

freelanceguild.net, .org

freeguild.org

ageart.net, .org

ageartists.com, .net, .org

agewriters.com, .net, .org


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PostPosted: 07 Oct 2010, 05:13 am 
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Some good suggestions Dot, except for a few things I'm trying to watch out for:

I don't want to call this a "Guild". Calling it a "Guild" would alienate those that don't like "guilds". It also ties it down to Uru and MOUL, and the place is going to be about, well everything and everywhere.
Also, it could have some people jump up and accuse me of trying to take people away from or loose focus on Uru / MOUL / Plasma.

The word "Writer" presents a problem. A "Writer" as in a person who writes stories / books/ etc, are of course more than welcome, as story telling is an art in itself.
But if the word is used in the context of "Writer" as a person that creates Ages, ala Guild of Writers, then I'll have a problem there as people from there will jump up and say I'm making other "Writers" loose focus on Uru / Plasma, etc.

That's why I have a problem with what I came up with because I'm using the word "Ages".

I don't want people to think that they are tied down with Uru / Guilds / People with closed minds or narrow focus. I want people to feel welcomed, and have a place to express themselves without fear of harassment or being badgered about things. First time it happens, I'll be taking the big and heavy "Ban" sledge hammer and squashing them flat.

So like your Devokan discussions are perfectly welcome there. It's a story, but it's also a cross over from another MMO and into Uru. You don't have to worry about anyone jumping up and screaming "Canon" in your face or anything like that.

I plan on having a "Canon" place for Uru there. People can discuss their work there if they feel it's part of the Canon of Uru, or if they want to debate it, but it will only be allowed there. Anywhere else is for sharing work or creations, asking questions of "How To", learning how to do other things besides Plasma, and asking for constructive feedback.

I'm thinking seriously of simply calling it: Beyond Uru

Edit: ah, just found out: "beyonduru.org" is free, but "beyonduru.com" is not. Don't want to confuse people. Might go with "artbeyonduru.org" (Art Beyond Uru)

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PostPosted: 07 Oct 2010, 05:43 am 
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Oooo. Thought of some others:

Creators Escape or The Creators Escape (both are free)

Alternate Worlds (the .org is free, .com is taken. Rand told me that he likes to call them Worlds, not Ages, but then again I'm trying to provide a place where no one feels tied down)

Alternate Ages (it's free).

I'm leaning heavily on Alternate Ages, and the domain name would be www.alternateages.org, considering what I'm talking about is not only having discussions of Plasma, but other game engines as well that would make the most sense.

Of course the humor hit me right away (Nalates called it my "Milk and Cookies" moment):

"Yes, I belong to 'AA'....my name is Andy Legate, and I'm a recovering Plasma Age Writer....."

heheheheheheheheh...........

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